Announcer (00:03):

Thanks for joining us for the Small Talk Big Ideas podcast, a podcast to enrich your soul, where we have conversations with inspiring people about all things property, business, and life. And now the host of Small Talk Big Ideas, Ian Ugarte.

Ian Ugarte (00:18):

Hey there. Welcome to Small Talk Big Ideas, and today’s podcast is with Mike Mortlock, a quantity surveyor. They say that they’re pretty dry people, but he’s actually quite funny. Tells us his story from when he was young all the way through to where he is right now as a quantity surveyor, and gives a great explanation of what it really is, including representing Australia. Enjoy today’s podcast on Small Talk Big Ideas. You can follow us and all the social media channels. Enjoy it today, it’s a great podcast. Hey Mike, how going?

Mike Mortlock (00:50):

Hey, how are you?

Ian Ugarte (00:52):

I’m fighting fit, building cabinets for my house. It’s-

Mike Mortlock (00:57):

Oh, wow.

Ian Ugarte (00:58):

… 95% complete, but it’s a builder’s house so it may never be complete. I’m a plumber too, so I actually had someone do the plumbing so the plumbing might be done. Who are you, Mike?

Mike Mortlock (01:16):

Gee, that’s a very esoteric question. It depends. I’m a humanoid fella, I’m a quantity surveyor. It’s the question people ask at barbecues, isn’t it? What do you do? But a much better question for a conversation would be, what are you passionate about? Because we don’t always do what we passionate about. It would be weird to say that I’m passionate about quantity surveying. Unfortunately it also would be the truth, but yes, I’m a quantity surveyor. I’m the managing director of MCG Quantity Surveyors, and outside of that I’m a family man, I’m an ex amateur triathlete and finger picker. That’s about it. That’s about me.

Ian Ugarte (02:00):

What’s a finger picker?

Mike Mortlock (02:02):

Well, that’s guitar. It’s a style of guitar, finger picking.

Ian Ugarte (02:06):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m with you. You said triathlete in the past, Olympic or full?

Mike Mortlock (02:17):

My best results were at the Olympic distance. I represented Australia as an amateur at the Olympic distance in 2013. That was the year after the Olympics so I get to race in London and swim in the Serpentine, which I’d only recommend to swans, if I’m honest.

Ian Ugarte (02:38):

It’s interesting that you bring that up, because I like to know almost nothing about who over I’m to talking about because it leads us in different directions. What happened after that? You represented Australia after the Olympics, but did you get an injury or did you just have enough?

Mike Mortlock (03:00):

I think at that time it was quite a level of commitment to make the national team and it was a sacrifice to the wife, to the business in some respects, and I think it’s just I realized that at that age it would’ve been early thirties, I wasn’t really going to get any faster. I wasn’t going to turn pro and then I ended up having a family and putting more time into the business. I probably pick a race every couple of years, get in ripping shape and then get obese and slow and then repeat the cycle.

Ian Ugarte (03:40):

I run marathons and so I used to say that I only ran so I could eat, that was it. Because it didn’t matter what I ate as long as I was training for a marathon, I could drop the weight. But then that eventually catches up with you. Swim, bike or run?

Mike Mortlock (03:59):

It’s always been bike for me. That’s always been the strength and swimming was the weakness. And then I worked on that and running became the weakness. It’s now back to swimming I think. But I don’t have a typical triathlete build, certainly not now, I’ve let myself go a bit. But even when I’m quite thin, I’m a little bit too heavy, I’ve got big quads, so the only is really on the bike just grounding out the big power.

Ian Ugarte (04:23):

Great. All right, well, let’s talk about where you grew up, where were you born and how did you grow up and kids and schools and, how did you get to the first working job?

Mike Mortlock (04:37):

I was born in Penrith and left there when I was two, not by myself obviously, and went to a little town called Yerong Creek, which nobody has ever really heard of. It’s half an hour drive from Wagga Wagga and it’s about 15 minutes drive from Henty and a lot of people have heard of the Henty Field Days, they used to have a good little jingle.

Ian Ugarte (05:00):

I’ve been into the Henty Field Day.

Mike Mortlock (05:02):

Have you? Wow.

Ian Ugarte (05:04):

One of my wastewater companies, we used to go out there and sell our wastewater systems. I’ve been to the Henty Field Day and I stayed in the Henty Pub, that was an experience.

Mike Mortlock (05:13):

Well, I was probably first change for the under 11 Henty cricket team.

Ian Ugarte (05:20):

Right.

Mike Mortlock (05:21):

Right arm leg spin. Batted normally 11th, top score 15.

Ian Ugarte (05:28):

You would understand and know a place called to Tolland then?

Mike Mortlock (05:32):

No.

Ian Ugarte (05:33):

In Wagga.

Mike Mortlock (05:33):

Tolland?

Ian Ugarte (05:33):

It’s one of the outer suburbs of Wagga that’s not the safest of suburbs in the past, but it’s getting it’s re-gentrification. We bought something in there, we’re doing four boarding house townhouses in there at the moment. You grew up there, near Henty and went to school locally, obviously?

Mike Mortlock (05:54):

Yeah. I finished at the end of year five and I was elected captain of the Yerong Creek Public School for year six, but we moved so I like to say I never served a day in office and then moved to the [crosstalk 00:06:10].

Ian Ugarte (06:09):

Sorry, can I just ask how many students were in your year?

Mike Mortlock (06:12):

Well, a year is a harder question there, there was about 30 students between kindergarten and year six. That was the whole school, 30 students.

Ian Ugarte (06:24):

I don’t mean to be disparaging or anything, but were there other runners in the school captaincy that you pushed out of the way or did you get it by default?

Mike Mortlock (06:36):

Wade Murphy was a red hot competitor, he ran a great campaign. But obviously just didn’t have what it took to represent such a prime institution.

Ian Ugarte (06:50):

Well, you ended up with Paul Keating, obviously after you left the area, he took over, right?

Mike Mortlock (06:56):

I think so. He must have.

Ian Ugarte (06:56):

You left there and what did you do from there?

Mike Mortlock (07:01):

Moved to Griffith in the Murrumbidgee irrigation area, a little place called Bilbul, where there was a big De Bortoli’s there. I think that might have been the original De Bortoli’s winery, but unfortunately left Griffith around about year nine, so pre-drinking age. It would’ve been great there, the cellar door and everything, but all I really remember is the settling ponds which used to cast this terrible stench over the 50 acres that we had.

Ian Ugarte (07:29):

What was the reason for all the moves?

Mike Mortlock (07:33):

The first move, I think, was my parents wanting to leave Sydney thinking that it would just be a better place to grow up or to raise children, I suppose, because we had 10 acres, which as a primary school kid was huge. It’s not a lot of farm for a farmer, it can only ever be a hobby farm. It was never income producing really and that was the idea. And then my old man, he worked for a metal company and he got a job in Griffith, so we moved to Griffith.

                  And then I had a lot of health issues as a young adult. I had chronic fatigue syndrome and some environmental sensitivity so the crop dusters flying over at every six minute intervals wasn’t necessarily a great thing so on medical advice, we decided to move closer to where one of my uncles was living. He lives in Lake Munmorah and we went on holidays to a little place called Belmont in Lake Macquarie, which now if you tell anyone from Newcastle that you once had a holiday at Belmont, they would laugh at you because it’s just down the road and it’s not yet really super gentrified, Belmont. But to us it was paradise. We went fishing, we caught fish that weren’t carp so you could eat them. And it was just having the lake and the ocean, it was just absolutely beautiful. We moved to a place called Cove’s Beach in about ’97 and I’ve been in the Lake Macquarie, Newcastle area ever since.

Ian Ugarte (09:13):

Right. And so firstly, what happened with the CFS? Did you do any particular treatment to get over that?

Mike Mortlock (09:23):

Yeah, when I start presentations, talking to investors and that sort of thing, I say, when I was in kindergarten, I said, when I grow up, I want to be a quantity surveyor and some people think I’m serious and they leave, others laugh because no one thinks about that. I wanted to be a fighter pilot and unfortunately at that time I was on an experimental course of full-time antibiotics. They say you shouldn’t take much of that because your body will build up an immunity, one day you’ll really need it and you’ll die of something trivial, like a cold. I had it for over two years full time so I’m worried one day I’ll really need it it’s not going to work for me.

                  That precluded me from being a fighter pilot and that was probably the main treatment. But it’s not a factor really in my life anymore. I think I have to be a little bit careful. CFS is a huge diagnosis for a number of different things. Technically we found out that I have an immunoglobulin A deficiency, this is turning into a medical program, which is very annoying because it’s only something that a white person can get. I’ve got some sort of racist, genetic problem. If you’re African American, you cannot have an RGA deficiency for some reason. I don’t know why.

Ian Ugarte (10:52):

Well, you can’t be wog then. Any siblings?

Mike Mortlock (10:57):

Yeah. I have a sister.

Ian Ugarte (10:58):

Right. And she’s older, younger?

Mike Mortlock (11:00):

She’s younger. She’s about two years younger.

Ian Ugarte (11:04):

Right. Okay. You get to the local area that you currently live in and how did you get into quantity surveying? Was that the first job you did?

Mike Mortlock (11:14):

No. The first job I ever did was a busker in Griffith. I went to the local council with my mum and got a little busking certificate. And when you’re, I don’t know how old I was, maybe I was 12 or something. And I had that, I was just at the ass end of that cute factor, which is a real money spinner. I can remember creating a little spreadsheet and I figured out that on an hourly rate I was getting paid more than the old man. In hindsight I probably should have kept that to myself. I just thought that was really… How much do you get paid Dad? I did all the sums. That’s probably a red flag there somewhere.

Ian Ugarte (11:57):

I always like hourly rates. I’ve got a mate, who’s an artist and when he’s doing a, what do you call it? What do you call those things where you…? Huh? No. When they show one artist in a gallery.

Mike Mortlock (12:14):

Exhibition.

Ian Ugarte (12:15):

An exhibition. So he has these exhibitions, so simple that word, has these exhibitions and I go to him, “How many paintings you’ve done?” He says, “20.” And I said, “How long did the first one take?” And he says, “It took me about 12 hours to do that one.” I said, “How much is that worth?” And he says, “About 1,500 bucks,” and I said, “How long it take you to the last one?” He goes, “Oh, you get quicker,” and I said, “How much is that one worth?” He goes, “Oh probably two grand,” and I go, “Oh man, that’s a hell of an hourly rate.” He goes, “It’s about the art, it’s not about the money.” Yeah, sure.

Mike Mortlock (12:45):

They don’t like you looking at it like that, you’re cheapening their art form.

Ian Ugarte (12:51):

Yes. All right. You busked, you were good at it?

Mike Mortlock (12:56):

I was good enough and I was young enough that it was, oh shit, look at that guy. If I did it today, I wouldn’t get a cent. The same material, I’d get nothing.

Ian Ugarte (13:05):

Right.

Mike Mortlock (13:06):

I think after that, my first proper job was a shelf stacker at Coles, and I can remember doing a stock take and a lady said, “When you’re writing down the number of items on the tickets, make sure that they’re eligible.” And I thought, ah, okay, I don’t want to make sure that I’m not doing this job when I’m your age. Makes me sound like a bit of an asshole, but she meant legible, but it was a light bulb moment for me there.

Ian Ugarte (13:38):

My dad had an apprentice once, first day he said to his apprentice, can you go make me a coffee? And the apprentice came back and gave him the coffee, and my dad drank it and he goes, “That is horrible,” and he says, “You’re never making another one for me again,” and he said, “Good.” Same vein as what you did. After Coles?

Mike Mortlock (14:02):

Because of some health issues I had to do year 11 and 12 over the course of three years. I did a halftime load at school and then most of my school mates graduated then in the year 2000, it would’ve been. And then I did year 11 and 12 for three subjects in one year and there was a crossover where I’d finished some and it was half load and my mother said, “You’re going to have to do something with that extra time.” And here I was thinking it’s fire department or bust. I had no real inclination to do anything else. I’d always been interested in property so I decided to study real estate and so I carried that over when I finished the HSC rather than going to uni, finished that diploma of real estate. That was a good old days where it took you a year full time to get a real estate license, instead of say a weekend. I think the REA or REIA are still working on that.

                  And so I finished on a Friday and I got a job as a real estate agent on a Monday, and I realized that if you are a nerdy introvert, real estate is not the career for you pretty quick. My illustrious real estate career ended after about 10 months in complete and utter failure.

Ian Ugarte (15:25):

Right.

Mike Mortlock (15:27):

Then I studied valuation because I realized I liked the property, but I was much more interested in the analysis and the economics. And I started working for a quantity surveying firm and they convinced me to change over my credits and do a Bachelor of Construction Management. I ended up getting no credits and shelving the valuation stuff. I was very close to finishing an advanced diploma, that’s a bit of a regret. Anyway, I did that and I realized that I quite enjoyed it because it was in the property space but I was more of an introverted person and people don’t believe me when they say that now, because as a business owner you’ve got to learn to sell yourself and people want to transact with people and I’ve got to try and be witty and charming. I’m still working on it obviously, but I was a pretty shy person. I liked doing the work and just being left alone.

Ian Ugarte (16:23):

It’s interesting that people pitched you and put you into pigeon holes. For me, I’m a public speaker and I could stand in front of 10,000 people and not have a single nerve about talking to people, but get me at a party where there’s 10 people and I just want to hide in the corner. Because when you’re speaking to people, you’re speaking at them. When you’re speaking with people, it’s a very different story. And so I’m a slight introvert in way too. Okay, so you are working for the quantity surveyors.

Mike Mortlock (16:55):

Yep.

Ian Ugarte (16:57):

You forge a path there, when do you start to decide to do you do your own business? How does that all come about?

Mike Mortlock (17:04):

I worked my way up there and became one of the co-managers of the tax depreciation side of it. I had a look at the traditional estimating and I wasn’t necessarily super interested in the construction technology or the nuts and bolts of construction, I was more an economic style analysis, valuation style mindset. Business partner now was managing their estimating team. This company shut that down and he was thinking, what do I do next? I’d got to the point where the people that started the business had made enough money that they were never there, and the people that were ahead of me had a vested interest in making sure that I stayed where I was. And I realized that I wasn’t really learning anything.

                  I signed up to do a Masters of Property just because I was bored. And I don’t think I’m a business owner, I think if I’d been paid a little bit more money or if I was a bit happier in that role, I’d probably still be working there. But I’m glad that I had that impetus to get out of that because some certain people are just career employees and I think I was very close to doing that. Now, I could never go back to working for somebody. It’s a completely different mindset.

Ian Ugarte (18:27):

What does Betty Davis say, Betty Davis said, “You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone, but more importantly, you don’t know what you didn’t have until you’ve got it.” And that working for yourself is a bit like that. Okay. With the business, obviously successful, and you wouldn’t turn that back in a thousand years because you obviously like what you do. Have you bought property?

Mike Mortlock (18:56):

Have I bought property? Yes.

Ian Ugarte (18:56):

You have your own home?

Mike Mortlock (18:56):

Yes.

Ian Ugarte (19:00):

Investment properties?

Mike Mortlock (19:02):

Yes.

Ian Ugarte (19:03):

Young when you bought them?

Mike Mortlock (19:07):

I would’ve been in my, I’m just trying to think, probably mid- to late twenties, maybe about 26, 27 when I bought my first property.

Ian Ugarte (19:17):

Yep, that’s pretty early.

Mike Mortlock (19:20):

It seems like it is, but then if you look at social media, there’s this huge genre of people like, I bought my first property when I was 17 and then I wanted to get 30 by 30 and now I’m at 38. I’m far less impressive than those people but there’s a lot of ego metrics around property. And I would say I have a modest portfolio, I have modest success. But to me that was, that was a big challenge and I can remember being quite proud of it at the time. And I probably didn’t become a property investor until I was maybe 30 or 31, something like that.

Ian Ugarte (20:04):

You see these people, because of social media, no longer can you be, and I hate the word guru, the property guru, there’s no longer the property guru. But the person that’s on social media is good at marketing, they’re not good-

Mike Mortlock (20:04):

Yes.

Ian Ugarte (20:24):

… at actually being the guru. They’re not good at actually really knowing. They’ve bought properties at the right time and it’s like Bitcoin experts, they all come out of the woodwork when Bitcoin goes up, but they go very quiet when it goes down. And it’s one of my bug bears that there’s people that can get on a stage or get onto social media and start bringing in clients based on one, if none, deals and just say whatever they want. There’s quite a few people out there that have been shown up that they don’t know what they’re doing and it’s almost, for me, it’s an unregulated industry that should be the first industry that’s regulated because I see it all the time and it annoys the bejesus out of me.

                  I invested my first property when I was 18, but that was with assistance from my parents. I’m not going to take that away from me, but I was driven to do stuff. But ultimately when you say to me a modest portfolio, I’m not going to ask how many there is, I don’t like that question when people ask me that question, because I’ve got a substantial portfolio, but they all want to know how many properties have you got and all that. It’s more about if it’s doing what it needs to do, and depending on whether you want to get out of work today or whether you’re happy to keep on working, most people that say that I have a modest portfolio have probably got a pretty decent portfolio, but you are basing it off… There’s one… I’m sorry, I’m ranting now.

                  There’s one particular guy that gets on there on social media, and he always hits my feed and I try and cancel every time, “Hi, this is such and such, and one of the Australia’s most successful property investors with 16 properties.” And I go, what the fuck are you talking about? 16 properties, that’s success? And one of the most successful. Geez, you need to get out a bit more. Okay. You’ve got kids now?

Mike Mortlock (22:22):

Yes.

Ian Ugarte (22:23):

Young, old?

Mike Mortlock (22:26):

They’re young. I’m probably an old dad, I’ve got a five year old and a 16 month old.

Ian Ugarte (22:32):

Right. And what do you see? I look at my kids and sometimes… I picked pretty early what I thought they would do and I got it right for two of them, they do nothing. Can you pick what one of yours will be doing, at least? The oldest one?

Mike Mortlock (22:54):

The oldest one, he’s very, very particular, he’s quite clever and he’s a master negotiator. I see him as being some sort of diplomat, to be honest. The way that he negotiates and he manipulates his mother and I, you’ve got to give him a pat on the back. It’s actually terrifying. He’ll say things like, “Thank you for letting me do this,” and you’re, oh, whatever, because you’re busy or whatever, and you’re, “Wait a minute, what did you just say?” And he’s already locked in that you’ve said that he could watch his favorite TV show at four o’clock or something. And you’re just, oh gosh, I’ve got to be more careful because he’s out to get me. He knows what he wants and he knows how to get it.

Ian Ugarte (23:42):

Good on him. Good on him. Let’s talk about quantity surveying. Have you ever seen Quido Hatzis ringing the quantity surveyor?

Mike Mortlock (23:52):

No, I haven’t.

Ian Ugarte (23:54):

You got to listen to that one. And the guy hates him. He keeps on hanging up on him.

Mike Mortlock (23:58):

Right.

Ian Ugarte (23:59):

Tell us about quantity surveying. What is it? I know with depreciation that property investors miss out on a lot, with QS in general, give us a breakdown, give us a four minute breakdown of what quantity surveying is and the different arms of what it does and then the mistakes that people make when it comes to quantity surveyors.

Mike Mortlock (24:23):

It’s a bloody big umbrella of an area of expertise. We’re the best people to say how much something would cost to build. Any reason why you would want to know how much something costs to build is where a quantity surveyor adds value. If you are a bank lending money to a developer, the bank wants to know how much it’s going to cost to build because they’re funding something that has a set value and that value changes over time as the construction progresses and we can certify that. If you’re wanting to ensure a property, let’s say your property burnt down and you want to reinstate it, you want that value to be accurate. And we’re seeing a huge problem with under insurance so that’s something that we’ve been actively tackling as a business in the last little while.

                  And then there’s all sorts of things that fall under quantity surveying like project management and contracts admin for construction projects. My area of expertise is really quite purely the tax appreciation side of things. I’ve done thousands and thousands of residential reports, all sorts of commercial things, wineries, pubs, restaurants, medical facilities, dental fit outs, trout farms, just all sorts of crazy stuff.

                  I think the biggest mistake on the traditional estimating side is not understanding the value of a quantity surveyor. If you watch that show with Kevin, what’s his name? It’s the-

Ian Ugarte (25:50):

Kevin McCloud.

Mike Mortlock (25:51):

… Grand Designs.

Ian Ugarte (25:52):

Yeah, Grand designs.

Mike Mortlock (25:54):

Grand Designs. They always have a quantity surveyor on all of their projects doing the cost management stuff. We don’t seem to see the same value in quantity surveying in Australia. And the amount of times where we might be engaged to do expert witness for a project over a 40 grand retaining wall and we see the legal fees getting to 200 grand. And you just think if someone had seen the value in paying us say maybe 1,800 bucks at the beginning, none of this would’ve happened.

Ian Ugarte (26:21):

Would have happened.

Mike Mortlock (26:22):

On that side, it’s the value. On the tax depreciation side of things, you talked about people missing deductions, according to our own data we did a sample of 1,000 residential property investor transactions and we found that 6.7% of people waited so long to engage a quantity surveyor that they missed out on the back claim. You can back claim two financial years and the average amount people missed out on was 20,537. Our PR journalist person who’s obviously got a degree in click bait said, “If you extrapolate that over the investor population, it’s $2.88 billion worth of missed deductions just floating out there in the ether. That’s a critical mistake.

Ian Ugarte (27:06):

At a cost of what to do with the report that would’ve got them that 20 grand?

Mike Mortlock (27:10):

Six or 700 bucks.

Ian Ugarte (27:12):

Which is crazy, isn’t it?

Mike Mortlock (27:14):

Yeah.

Ian Ugarte (27:14):

It’s absolutely crazy.

Mike Mortlock (27:17):

It’s almost like I’m selling something that’s a bit too good, but the value proposition is too attractive so it must be a trick or I’m a spruker or something. And I’ve gone to the point of saying, “I don’t care if you use me, I’d love to do the work. I care, firstly, that you use somebody, secondly, that you use me because there’s value. I don’t want you to think I’m just trying to sell you into something, that’s not my style or who I am,” but people just sometimes don’t realize how valuable it is.

Ian Ugarte (27:50):

There was some changes in the last few years in depreciation, did that hurt the industry at all or is it still the same?

Mike Mortlock (27:59):

It hurt the industry in the sense that there is less residential work that’s now viable. The 9th of May 2017 was when the changes came out, so if you purchase a property after that date, it either needs to be brand new to claim the plant and equipment items like carpets, blinds, kitchen appliances, or an established property where you put those new items in. Because I’m a weird bloke, when that announcement was happening I already had on my desk an analysis of 5,000 tax depreciation schedules, where I was analyzing the data for different reasons. That night I drove into the office and calculated what this impact would actually have and sent it to the two cleverest, most media connected people that I had in my Rolodex at that time and that was Louis Christopher and Pete [Werchon 00:28:50].

                  I just realized that they had more reach than me, I had the data, I let them go with it. And we found that about 18% of the last 1,000 residential reports that we did, we would not recommend the owner to proceed. It shrunk our market by a portion. When I first drove in, I thought-

Ian Ugarte (29:14):

My business is done.

Mike Mortlock (29:15):

… this might be the end of the business. It was a stressful time and Scomo and I have been on rough terms ever since then because he was the treasurer that made that announcement.

Ian Ugarte (29:26):

Good on you.

Mike Mortlock (29:27):

I’m still upset.

Ian Ugarte (29:29):

That’s what happens when you’re a shark supporter. What is the name of your business, how can people get hold of you and be able to use your services?

Mike Mortlock (29:41):

The business is MCG Quantity Surveyors. I don’t know if it’s in shot there?

Ian Ugarte (29:45):

Yeah, there it is.

Mike Mortlock (29:46):

There you go. MCG Quantity Surveyors, and you can find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, not TikTok, what’s the other one?

Ian Ugarte (29:58):

Twitter?

Mike Mortlock (29:58):

Instagram.

Ian Ugarte (29:59):

You on Twitter?

Mike Mortlock (30:00):

Twitter. I used to do a lot on Twitter, I don’t do much on Twitter. I’m probably a bit more LinkedIn, Facebook, maybe that’s just showing my age. But can search MCG Quantity Surveyors, search my name, Mike Mortlock and be delighted to be of service and value to anyone that’s in the property investing game.

Ian Ugarte (30:15):

Awesome. It’s been awesome having you on, thanks for coming along.

Mike Mortlock (30:19):

I always enjoy chatting with you, Ian, cheers. I appreciate the opportunity.

Ian Ugarte (30:24):

There you have it, Mike Mortlock, a quantity surveyor that’s very interesting and very funny. You can find him at MCG Surveyors on all the social media channels. If you want to find out more about our co-living properties getting double digit returns, go to invida.com.au, that’s I-N-V-I-D-A.com.au, and find out how you can get some great returns out of residential property all over Australia. I’m glad and hope that you enjoyed today’s podcast and make sure you’re listening out for the next one.

Announcer (30:54):

Thanks for tuning into the Small Talk Big Ideas podcast. We hope we’ve succeeded in our goal to inspire and challenge and you, and we look forward to catching you on the next episode of Small Talk Big Ideas with Ian Ugarte.